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In this Office Hours, Probable Prime talks about:

  • IK
  • Desktop Mode

And a few other new user questions.


(Please note that the transcriptions will not be 100% accurate)

Okay, so welcome to office hours, it is the top of the hour, it is 4pm, if you have questions

please feel free to drop them into the office hours chat, otherwise we're going to sit here

and wait for questions.

So let's get going.

I see people type, excellent, I eat questions for breakfast, well it's actually 4pm so I

eat questions for early dinner I guess, I did just eat, I have a cup of tea here, so

I'm going to mute whilst I wait for questions and slurp on some tea.

Speaking of slurping, are people aware of that meme with the guy that tastes ice cream?

That's a good meme.

I found the source of it, it's interesting, sometimes you just accidentally find the sources

of memes and it's cool.

So it's the chief ice cream tester at a creamery and his tongue is insured for a million dollars

and he tests all the new flavours and I watched a documentary on ice cream making on the history

channel that was uploaded to YouTube.

And yeah, it's a meme, I found the origination accidentally and suddenly I was just faced

with like, wait a minute, that's the ice cream guy, I'll get the video for you, here it is.

This person uses a gold spoon because it leads to less aftertaste.

I don't know what he means, if I eat at someone else's house or sometimes when I'm on vacation

and I use other cutlery that's not mine, food will taste slightly different if I've been

eating it with my cutlery, I realised I'd eaten more cutlery and so I ordered more but

I ordered more of a different type and so now my cutlery drawer is mixed with cutlery.

Why are we talking about food spoons, let's move on.

So a question from Holy which is which tea flavour, currently El Grey, it's probably

a little bit late for caffeine but you can't stop me, I forgot to filter the water though

so it's a bit there.

Okay now an actual legitimate question, isn't it about ice cream cutlery or tea, come Griffin

thank you.

I've noticed that sometimes my avatar import will not add an eye manager when selected,

what might cause this if it's put here, it's put it on before but lately I've also been

checking the box for face tracking setup.

It might occur that it doesn't get put on if it can't find your eyes, so similar to

like the other bone related structures, if it can't find them then it doesn't do that,

like for example if you rig a model that doesn't have hands that conform to our requirements

then it won't add the hand stuff, like it'll still allow you to move your arms and your

hands but it won't then do finger tracking, who was it that had that issue?

I think it was someone that was importing one of the Risk of Rain characters, the Lemurians,

like just the standard sort of like stand up sort of animalistic looking characters,

they don't really have fingers or correct fingers so they just, it just doesn't get

set up so do check to keep an eye on that.

So Bean, thank you for typing your question, I guess my one question is when you're planning

implementing an option to disable post-processing, some of my friends have epilepsy, can't join

because the post-processing is hurting their eyes, will there be a better GUI, hi, struggling

with my words today, will there be a better GUI for desktop users so drawing shapes is

easy, building is fun but it's difficult and I've tried the real, okay, lots of questions

there, so if it says disabling post-processing, that's actually blocked on like two separate


So number one is like we are trying to change up our graphical engine to make it easier

to do stuff like that for you, until we do that, we don't really want to invest a time

in that.

I'm aware that it's bad, I would love to provide the ability to disable it but we've just made

the sort of stance that we need to focus our efforts elsewhere right now and then the second

one there is our settings UI, if you go to our settings tab, it's just a mess, like it's

a mess, like it's one of the worst parts of our UI, we can't go on with that settings

UI so we want to update that such that there is more room for settings and when I say settings

or the settings, at which point it'll be like hey you want settings, we've got settings,

I hope we have a way to like hide and show certain settings, otherwise like we're just

going to end up with like setting soup again but that'll then also allow those features.

That's all I've already got for you, I'm interesting to hear like which particular part of post-processing

is the problem, is it the bloom, I wouldn't imagine it would be the AO but I could understand

if the bloom is doing it.

As for your second question about drawing, have you tried, oh no you're talking about

desktop drawing, yeah for desktop drawing I'm not sure, desktop mode is of course supported

right now but like it's unclear what like the next priority in improving that will be,

I know that we need to get better sort of naturalistification, that's not a word but

like you know what I mean, going for desktop users so they don't just look flat, for example

I see a lot of avatars where they're in desktop and their hands are at their sides but they're

at their sides without any sort of consideration about how wide the character is and so they're

like their hands are just sort of like in their belly or in their thighs just like hanging

there like straight, if we could get like some sort of natural animations going there

I think that would be a lot more appreciated than them staying like that, so there's lots

of like desktop things that we need to look at, same with like walking, posing, stuff

like that, like VRChat does it where there are different, like there are different animations

by default but you can also kind of customize those, now we won't have animation support

in the same way that VRChat does because we know we're not unity but like they do have

better default animations for desktop based avatars where their hands are out to the side,

it's almost like a like a sneaky look from a video game like you're sneaking but like

you know it does like make it look a bit better, like I always say like it's obvious if someone

is in desktop because of those like animations but yeah the reason why I mention hand posing

is because that's usually the problem right, so you just like the tool comes out of your

hand and then your hand goes wonky, to me it like might be better if like we had an

option for like the tool to just be attached to your face, you have like because of your

mouse you've got ultimate control over your face like if you could just draw over your

face you'd basically be back to like a regular drawing experience, I remember those days

where I can't figure out if I'm warm or cold so I put on a sweater now I'm gonna mute and

take off a sweater whilst the next questions are typed, keep those questions coming on

just imagine primary moving a sweater that's all that's happening right now, and I'm back

because there's another question, so NFT Hater says try to import an avatar in Eos but the

arms feel way too short, how to fix it, so if you inspect the root of the avatar, I can

never remember these, they're luckily they're on the same slot so you can just scroll through

them, it's either VRIK or VRIK avatar I can never remember which they're named terribly

I hate them, on one of those components you'll find properties about the arms and on those

arms will be arm length multiplier, arm length multiplier allows you to if you overdrive

it have like spaghetti arms but I don't advise that because it kind of like pushes your chest

back at those levels but you can tweak it a little bit and it will give you longer arms

I do that frequently as I am ginormous and you know my arms are really long so I need

to sort of do that for my use, good way to test if you need to do that is to in VR extend

your arm until your actual avatar arm stops moving and then stretch and see what happens

right you can almost see especially if you've got the SteamVR overlay open you can see that

the controller goes further but your arm stops if you see that then you should tweak the

arm length multiplier so that those line up I always like do I touch the top of my head

then I touch my elbow or my shoulder now it's not gonna be good in terms of angle but it

should be good in terms of position because we don't have like elbow tracking unless you

got the trackers for it we don't have elbow tracking so there's no way to like you know

do that moving onwards Gran Griffin asks is making a model double-sided causing meaningful

performance difference I believe that it actually doubles the vertices if it doubles the vertices

and of course it doubles the the you know the diversity count of the model if it doesn't

divert doesn't double them then no performance impact therefore wherever possible I would

recommend instead using the PBS dual sided or turning off the culling option on the 62

when you do that make sure you give the model a good look around there are some times where

like having no culling just makes everything look really really weird and that's because

like if you've got faces that are like really intersecting and then having them doubled

up could just do to like just sort of impossible geometry and stuff it's in that a couple of

times of like hair or fur on some avatars where you double-side it and everything just

looks weird I like the like new way that a lot of like new avatars with fur doing it

where they kind of like they sculpt sort of triangle cones into the actual mesh rather

than doing the old approach which is like opacity like single-sided opacity excluded

like triangles and stuff because that way you don't have those issues gun Griffin second

question says what other settings are relevant for calibrating an avatar where do you find

them in hierarchy all right so there is a lot in the root of the avatar vrk vrk avatar

I have a lot there in particular look at the gate system if someone like figures out the

gate system and comes up with a good standard for the gate system like you'll get so much

cake because like I know people like lots of people don't like the standard gates but

they didn't realize they can edit them everyone's like oh I wish you know you could just add

an animation for walking you can edit the gate system in my editing of the gate system

I made myself leapfrog and regardless of like both feet were like stuck together and I would

just like hop forwards and then I increased the speed of that and I turned my feet into

like a jackhammer and it just was like you know boom boom boom boom boom because like

I increased the amount of steps per like meter and that was a really cool thing I then made

my like strides really big and we went from goose stepping which is like an historical

march that German soldiers used to do I believe I'm not a historian but I remember goose stepping

being a sort of like meme about Germany or something in history lesson I don't remember

all the way to what I'm just gonna call sort of ballet leaping you know when a ballet dancer

leaps forward with their leg outstretched that was again gate settings that I did so

if you want different walking animations gates there's a lots of stuff there I don't know

what half of them do my best bet is to like mess with them I remember like a notable example

that comes to mind is when I imported one particular avatar its butt would stick out

right it was like almost having a hunch back but it was because the butt was just stuck

out too much and I went to Delirious Jacks community member here and I just said like

I think you fixed the butt sticking for someone else do you mind having a look and they said

I don't know how to fix it but I'll work on it with you and we just played with a bunch

of settings and then my butt was unstuck out there's also a github issue by what's that

like bright color Diwali that has eye tracking I can't remember their name anyway they made

a github issue which had some recommended default value changes so they were like proposing

that Neos make changes to the default values for your IK to fix some issues that they noticed

I point people towards those because we can't implement those by ourselves right now because

we're not sure on the implications for all avatars but if you make those changes and

you have good use with them then fantastic and make sure to thank them yeah properties

linked it thank you so much it's it's Grox yeah I was right the colorful of Ali without

with eye tracking they're all they're all named sort of like approximately okay you

know I'm just looking at the issue now like body rot stiffness basically means like the

rotation stiffness but it isn't clear to me like what I should edit that to like compare

that to say like temperature right and you can turn the degrees up on your thermostat

to be hot or cold that's really obvious what you want to do the same with maybe you know

like a faucet you know you want to turn it like I want more water or less water but like

with this when you change these numbers it's like I don't know 0.1 is better I care yay

and 0.15 is Cthulhu basically so you just don't know you just gotta play with them it

depends on your on your exact avatar so we'll move on I would love to get all of those documented

I would love for like I love like a video of them actually I you know if someone was

basically just like went through them all in turn and was like here is body rotate stiffness

if you said it low you'll look like this if you said it high you look like this we recommend

it looking like this I'd love that kind of video of course that would probably need to

be done for like most avatar types and what I mean by that is like of course most of us

are humanoids still but like there's different sort of ways of doing humanoid hence the sort

of butt sticking out problem also stuff like that so it might be good to sort of have recommendations

based on certain avatars based on that so my advice there is basically play with it

just have fun there's so much there though if you if you're frustrated with the IK like

unless you've played with all of those settings be a little bit less frustrated I mean still

be frustrated because the settings already up juice but what I mean by that is I can't

change this maybe you can please try I have no idea how half the work Bean has another

idea thank you I got idea for some things they say for the building and drawing in desktop

mode it would act like a puppet from a little big planet you can control the cursor directly

with a line corresponding connecting occurs to the avatar you can choose to draw with

the mouse or with the movement keys or to follow a layer based system unless you present

key to set it freeform so the avatar system and the clipping issues have a tool they would

posture editor yeah postured it's a really good thing I think we need more sort of in-built

avatar tools so like for a bunch of like users they they set up systems by themselves I'm

trying to think of example so gestures is a good example like Neos could have an in-built

gesture editor the sort of like head pat logics with activities blend shapes we could have

that built-in poses animations and gates we could have like a really smooth UI for that

we could also have presets for the gate system you know when you set up your avatar there's

like a question I don't know about the UI but like maybe there's like a sort of questionnaire

and it's like do you want your avatar to move heavy plodding like they're a large you know

just thinking of like a large boss from Dark Souls you want to move like a large box from

Dark Souls or do you want them to move like a ballerina right and go between those two

options and see how they move we could even do an animation of your avatar similar to

how the full body tracker does where it's in front of you and just walking on a treadmill

and say like ah do you want to tweak it walk it on a treadmill walk on a treadmill I actually

have a world where you hit a button it duplicates your avatar and walks you on a treadmill I

just haven't like released that that was called my gate editor world I just haven't finished

it um uh then going for the the drawing have you tried the free camera mode it sounds similar

like I haven't played a little bit planet I did want to play a little bit planet but

like I couldn't afford a ps3 so I skipped ps3 I could afford a ps4 sat next to me I

haven't used it in like three years but it sat next to me um it sounds a little bit like

the free camera mode the layering system for drawing is is interesting there are tools

that can kind of help you with that but a lot of those tools don't work too well in

desktop I'll certainly take a look at that feedback um scrolling down past the uh gligrocks

issue uh I'd like to pose a sort of benchmark when they're in those changes new performance

wise I don't think we need like performance testing with those VR um ik changes none of

those should have performance uh benefits or improvements or anything like that um basically

all those values that you're editing are already being calculated every step and every movement

um so changing them doesn't really change how fast the calculation takes it just changes

what the the animation looks like um I know if it wants to do a bunch of um updates to

the ik system anyway that is where the performance lies um that's also a lot of cases that happens

with a lot of other things as well people worry too much about stuff which we can fix

for them they're like this node is is kind of bad like well we can fix it like maybe

don't avoid it we can fix it please open an issue let us know that there's a problem with

that node uh unnamed cyborg cat says um can one import dot blend files into neos yes um

uh usually what will happen there is uh when you do that neos will try to find your blender

installation so make sure you have blender installed if you can't find your blender installation

I don't think it works so maybe it'll do a full back um and then it will basically like

run a command line program with a version of blender to export that as an fpx file but

you can do it um you might have mixed results doing it I know some people like doing it

because it works for them I don't know some people don't like it because it doesn't work

for them just just try it out uh Tony says is there a way to disable ik when in full

body not sure um you do still need some of it and the reason why you still need some

of it is because with ik um we can say hey your foot is here because we have your foot

tracker but that doesn't mean we know where your knee is so we need to inverse kinematics

where your knee is or where your hip joint is and yeah you might have trackers for all

those places but like there's still calculations that need to be done moving forwards elm elm

now says no says uh is it possible to kick something if you're tracking over foot yes

uh you could set that up um there are like there are colliders on your feet but they're

not like defaultly set up to interact like that you would need to um add some custom

stuff to that um you would probably need to put an active collider on your foot I'm gonna

say this now I'm gonna say this forever because people keep mistaking this active colliders

are fine provided you follow like a couple of uh assurances you'll be absolutely fine

don't worry about them too much um but yeah it's possible to set up but not like easy

to explain how to set up uh particularly when we don't have physics like once we have physics

I believe we'll see much more of that stuff because we'll have people playing football

and stuff like that uh moving onwards ah yes so froppy says uh f6 is free cam um neota

shop is uh also an option I'm sure if you know about that bean um so go to essential

tools polylogics tools and then go through the options there one's called poly uh called

for uh neota shop and there's a picture from froppy probably so helpful everyone everyone

like everyone given a round of what's the froppy gunn griffin asks what's the best way

to invert a boolean using components I'm not sure I wouldn't use components oh you can

use a boolean value driver um boolean value driver bool and that way you can do it sometimes

I do do that but I don't usually try to do it because it's a bit like finicky um so boolean

value driver bool has the state variable and then a true value and a false value so for

the true value you do off for the false value you do on and then you effectively invert

it froppy again who needs a another round of applause uh and then we have another question

from renamed from an fd hater to unnamed cyborg cat does need to have a traditional programming

which just logics just logics right now we might have a text-based language at some point

um you can look at our plugin system if you wish to write actual code but right now it's

just logics I didn't mention this clearly before but I do need to leave directly at

half past so uh make sure you keep your eye on the time we've got two more minutes for

questions I want to say like quinn it's like what's a quinnit uh bean says I should probably

do a stream one day showing how a little bit planet does level building I could emulate

it uh yeah if you send me a video like drop it into my dms I'll take a look and then maybe

we can uh figure out a solution for you the reason for the tight schedule I'm apartment

hunting right now and I need to get back to it otherwise I'll be homeless I mean I won't

be like I can afford home apartments and everything like that it's just my lease is running out

and I don't have a new lease that's all folks if you have questions please feel free to

drop them in my dms and I'll get back to you as soon as I can see you again next week and

I'll post this on sound later bye-bye