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In this Office Hours, Probable Prime talks about:

  • Workflows
  • External programs
  • Project Planning
  • Education

Random links from the epsidoe that you might need:

  • Sudbury Schools - The school type I refer to where students are free to learn in their own way.
  • Learning Pyramid - Modeling the retention scores of types of learning where teaching other people works better.
  • Learning things F.A.S.T.E.R. - An article about an abbreviation on how to learn things.
  • Dust 3D - The weird, 3D modeling application I mentioned.
  • Detecting Agile BS - The Department of Defense document I mentioned.


(Please note that the transcriptions will not be 100% accurate)

Okay, welcome to Prime Time, it is 4pm, so we're going to go ahead and get started.

Please drop your questions in the Office Hours text channel if you have questions, and I'll

get to them as soon as I can.

There are no questions waiting, so whilst we're waiting for that, I do want to promote

the newly created-from-myself myths page.

We're a little bit agitated by just myths in the community.

It's kind of natural right now due to the situations at play, but hey, that's a Tico


It's a natural link, I copied it from my Twitter, that's why it's a Tico link, give me a second,

there we go.

My myths page.

Those of you who drop in, if you have any questions, drop them into the Office Hours

text channel, it's two slots above this one in the channel list, I'll just hang out and

we'll wait for any questions that make, if at all.

Please ask questions.

In case we have a question from Drace, which is why are you so amazing, the answer to that

one is that is an opinion, which you are welcome to have, there is no way to justify an opinion.

It's your opinion.

For those new folks dropping in, drop questions in Office Hours and we'll get to them as soon

as we can, otherwise just sit back, relax, and listen to the uncomfortable silence that

exists in this room when there are no questions.

For those dropping in, drop questions in Office Hours, the text channel, it's two slots above

this one that you clicked, and we'll get to them as soon as we can, there are still no


So the uncomfortable silence will be increased to level 11.

We have a good question from SnakeFinnis who asks what is this?

So this is the Office Hours or AMA for Primetime, which is myself.

I'm in charge of sort of many things, but most importantly documentation and tutorials

here at Neos, so if you have questions on those lines, let me know.

If you have questions just for the Neos team generally, ask them, I'll be able to sort

of either answer them or redirect you to the appropriate place.

Whatever you want to ask, you can go ahead and ask, just drop it in the Office Hours


That's a good question, says are there any guidelines for formatting Neos Wiki pages?

The answer is yes.

On the sidebar of the Neos Wiki, there is a button called contributing to the Wiki,

which leads to a page which talks about the formatting and guidance for how to contribute

to the Wiki.


We have some questions.

So from Trace, we say how are you doing yourself on this fine day?

I'm good.

I saw a bird.

I thought it was yesterday, but I guess I'm going to talk about it.

Yeah, I've got a balcony here in my apartment, and a bird landed on the chair outside here

and looked at me grumpily and then ruffled his feathers and flew away.

That was cool.

So where does the money from Patreon go to?

So the money from Patreon goes into an account, and then that account is used to pay for various


Right now that would be the cloud bill that we have, so we have cloud services.

Those do require money, and any other sort of technical stuff like that.

So I presume we'd have to renew our domain periodically.

So is searching needs renewing.

That will get paid for.

Other than that, I don't actually know.

I'd love for us to get to pie chart.

Pie chart would be great.

It would be like I'm making up these percentages.

These are not the correct percentages.

I'm just making them up for conversation.

Let's say 10% goes to service costs.

2% goes to, I don't know, the administrative costs, like whatever domain renewal, I don't


Just like stuff like that.

It would be like two thirds goes to salaries or whatever, and it would be like 1% goes

to cheese.

You know, like a pie chart that shows exactly where the money was going would be like amazing.

You'd be able to apply that pie chart to your individual contribution.

Let's say, for example, you contributed $100 a month, then you'd be able to do that quite


You'd be able to be like, ah, 1%, that's $1, goes towards prime's cheese collection.

You'd be able to be like, yep, $1 of my money goes to prime's cheese collection, and you'd

be beautiful.

So hopefully maybe that in the future.

We'd probably sort of extrapolate those out over a year as well, which sometimes isn't


Sometimes you'll see pie charts which are just like the month.

That means what you get is like spikes and randomness.

Whereas if you take those yearly expenses, break them down monthly, then you can get

like a pie chart that's a lot more stable.

So Daffy has a question.

For people who might want to start making things utilizing resources outside of Neos

to contribute to it, has anybody thought of developing a workflow tutorials to help generate

assets or encourage user-created content inside of Neos, i.e., a blend of the substance to

an important game?

Not that I'm aware of.

It's certainly like an avenue that people can certainly go into.

I know that we've got a couple of sort of pin resources around for things like what

substance painter workflow to use, what materials, what textures to use.

We've also got Wiki pages starting to appear, like the humanoid requirements I completely

rewrote because it was driving me mad.

We constantly get queries about that.

They're like, my hip bone is called orangutan, and Neos isn't recognizing it as an avatar.

Like, it should be fixed.

I'm like, no, it shouldn't.

Don't name your hip bone orangutan.

Name it hip, or hips, or hips, lowercase, or hip, lowercase, fine, it'll pick it up.

If it's a hip bone, it should be named hips.

But yeah, certainly like modeling and stuff like that.

We often get feedback on our PBS, like, metallic maps that people find confusing, which is

confusing to me because it's the standard Unity material map, so I don't really know

what's going on there.

Maybe it's an unreal thing, who knows?

As always, just make tutorials.

Make them, share them, people will watch them.

If I was confident in my 3D modeling ability enough to make a functional avatar, we're

talking just like a blob person, you know, like, tubes for legs, et cetera, I would do

the entire process.

I'd be like, all right, day one, wake one, open blender, make the tube man, export to

FBX, import, put the head where the head is, the hand where the hand is, look, I'm using

them, just to sort of show it isn't hard.

The hard part should just be in the creativity.

It shouldn't be in the technicalities, it should always be the same.

Yeah, the skin modifier, yep, that would be, you know, perfect.

There's a variation there, like the one on the bottom right, sort of reminiscent of sort

of Incredibles or Minions styling.

You make like an armature, and then you do the skin modifier on it.

You do the armature like just lines.

When I say armature, I don't mean blending armature, I mean like how you do an armature

if you're sculpting IRL, you take wire, sometimes metal coat hangers, you bend it into the shape

of the body, then you throw clay on it, and that's exactly what the skin modifier does.

You make the bent coat hanger, and then you throw the skin modifier on it, and you get


Duff asks, have you seen other user workflows utilizing resources outside of blended substance?

If so, what would alternative programs be?

People do still use the other 3D modelers, Maya, and then like other more obscure ones.

Maya and Blender are usually the two that people use these days.

I've also seen a lot of people that use ZBrush for sculpting.

That's totally fine, too.

ZBrush, ZBrush, American, UK pronunciations.

Fusion comes up as well.

I forgot, like when it comes to hard service modeling, some people use like fusion stuff

like that, SketchUp, that one for like architectural modeling.

There's one particular user who was using the hammer editor to make their map for everyone

to see.

That was fun as well.

But yeah, it's basically like the assets there are very similar to the ones that you would

use for any game, really.

I wouldn't like discourage or discount, is probably a better wording there, the use of

anything like Photoshop, GIMP,, anything like that.

You just sometimes like, a good example here being like you download an avatar base and

it has brown eyes and you want blue eyes, Photoshop or whatever can fix that for you.

There's no need to open Blender.

There's no need to open Substance Painter.

There's no real need to even understand how the avatar works, right?

You just open up the texture file and you're like, there are the eyes, I'll make them blue.

And then you make them blue.

I'm sort of interested, but not really because the Windows UI is unfortunately, it wasn't

good the last time I looked at it.

It might be good now.

There's this program called Dust, Dust 3D, which is a completely different way of modeling

than you have seen.

It's like hard to explain, but you have to get a side and front photo of the same object

and then you can kind of just like model it.

Oh, that's going to be the recording there, I just started a YouTube video.

If you hear piano music on the recording of this, just ignore it.

But yeah, if you look at this video here, they model a dog and it isn't in any way that

you would imagine that you would model a dog.

They'd never edit vertices at all.

It might look like they do, but they never do.

For maps and worlds like that, I have a lessons to World Machine.

I haven't used it.

World Machine usually makes worlds which are too big for Nius.

There is another one that generates terrain.

Just do that easily with Blender and Photoshop as well.

You just make terrain.

It's easy.

It's just like a grayscale height map.

Maps and worlds, just sometimes like paper will actually help there.

Just throw stuff around.

I did see a video yesterday of the PS5 game or PlayStation game called Dreams, where you


It's very much sort of like more simplified than Nius, of course, but very much more user-friendly

where you can just sort of throw around stuff and people are like making art there or making

scenes there that allow them to just explore what they're doing.

I know a lot of people use that for sort of sharing ideas and then they'll go ahead and

build it once they know what the ideas look like.

Moving on to other questions there.

Let's ask what happens to the games' office hours.

I don't know.

I've asked them a few times.

I moved their office hours to like temporarily suspended along with Chroma's.

I would presume you would have to ask them if you want more information about that.

Russia asks, is there anything you've been wanting to cover in a tutorial but haven't

got around to or would like to see more tutorials on?

I have a huge list I just haven't got around to, so I'll just skip that one with everything

jazz hands.

I would like to see more tutorials on basically anything.

Sometimes people are like, oh, I won't make tutorials because Prime makes them.

You go ahead and make them.

Go ahead and make them.

Basement Nerds Logix tutorial isn't like my style.

It's made completely differently.

I myself wouldn't find it effective to learn Logix, but some people do and they find it

helpful and that's great.

That really just highlights that everyone learns differently and has a different approach

to both learning and teaching.

So go for it.

Like make tutorials.

If there were like, I don't know, 50 tutorials for learning Logix out there, then there is

a greater chance that one would fit a particular user.

Additionally, there is this abbreviation called FAST or FASTER if you want to be more modern

in the sort of lingo for it, which is about learning things.

There's a blog article about it, learning and I think FASTER, and it just has an abbreviation

and I think the T is like teach.

Yeah, the T is teach.

So there's a way of like, there's also like a pyramid of learning, I never remember what

it's called.

Yeah, here it is.

I don't know if this is like the exact one, but it promotes the different types of learning

and it shows here that like lectures, audiovisual stuff is 20% retained and then doing it, which

is the sort of lower half of that pyramid, is 30, 50%, 75% and then teaching others right

at the bottom, 90%.

I was talking to Fruchs a while ago and there is a study that was portrayed in I think it

was a European country.

He recommended a book about it, but I forgot the name of the book, where they created a

new type of school and in this type of school there was no real structure to it.

People were just like free to learn whatever and I didn't understand it, I was like what

do you mean?

What happened was they mixed the age groups of the students, just sort of freeform really,

and they taught each other mostly.

So there might be like in the school like a reading room or a reading corner of a room

and there might be an older student there reading a more complex book and it'll be a

cool story and so a younger student would go over there and sit down and be like sounds

cool read me the story and then they would read the story to them and then maybe they

might go I want to know what happens next can you teach me how to read a book at this

level and then boom you've got an older student learning to read by teaching a younger student

how to read who's learning how to read and then that just happened everywhere you know

maybe the kid likes dinosaurs so he goes over to like a freeform library and goes cool pulls

a book on dinosaurs can't read it but can look at the pictures looks at the pictures

shows the pictures to his classmates and they're like cool we would like to learn how to read

this dinosaur book over to an older student all sorts of stuff like that that's probably

the name ng says it's a Sudbury school probably I need to read the book to understand more

about how that works because I've got sort of questions about sort of base skills I don't

think would be taught effectively there like let's say a kid goes into that environment

and they want to make a game cool like they'll need to learn some maths there but I believe

there's probably a path through that school where they don't learn more traditionalized

stuff but part of the argument behind that type of schooling is do they need to and that

goes against the sort of whole like up and arm stand on your soapbox land of standardized

testing is bad which generally I agree on but like I'm I'm biased because I've been

through education so like whatever it's a good thought experiment the point there being

though is that you'll learn better by teaching people and you'll learn better by interacting

with people whilst you are teaching and also by just doing and making tutorials is a fantastic

example of that so try that just googled to ng use Sudbury school and yes there is a wiki

learning and teaching people also comes up with like new new scenarios new things that

you might not have you know wanted to know how to do so with my work with Hamish University

of Sydney and now whatever university they're working with there's just like crazy stuff

that comes up that just doesn't make any sense but you're like cool like it's time we came

to me and he's like hey I need to calculate the angular velocity of your eyeball just

like okay okay sure we can do that we can calculate the angular velocity of an eyeball

and so we used the eye tracking data to figure that out it's useful I can't remember exactly

how that's one of the problems you're like okay I'll do this crazy thing but like why

are we doing it and you kind of forget sometimes it is something to do with the stuff there

their phd was on which is a test that involves eye movement to head movement synchronization

which can diagnose vestibular issues vestibular issues is the sort of organ and system that's

in the middle ear that drives your balance and when it's broken you can do what's called

a hit test which sort of figures out if there is a problem there you do that by measuring

the eye movement in relation to a head movement after you rapidly jerk their head towards

one direction almost like you're kind of breaking their neck in a sort of cinemagraphic way

like you might see in a movie but not actually breaking their neck of course because that

would never go through like ethics so doing that in in game is what we were trying by

measuring the velocity of the eyeball moving on to the next question here lazy hat guys

is any atas on the next major update to nears no I don't have any atas we don't usually

provide them I would love to provide them in the future we just can't provide them right

now check the roadmap check our discord announcements channel and check our steam update feed I

guess and it'll come eventually there is one sub preschool in the entirety of the UK okay

well I had zero chance of going to that then where is it oh it's in Margate I know Margate

Margate's a coastal town I'd usually go there to go to the beach that's a good good good

good question from crusher here so crusher says how would you go about starting large

projects nears or elsewhere I am traditionally now I don't really want to be but hey careers

are fun I am actually a product manager right now and so I am very educated in this area

but there are parallels where you can sort of scheme off the top is what I'm saying if

you go deep into project management you're wasting your time planning and communication

is so important I would love if we just had in the education science channel we just had

a sort of recording from a couple of people from the MC 2022 where they talked about sort

of how they built things I would love to get that from a particular group I'd like to see

it from the credit canyon group and in particular from their last year's entry the same group

did the abandonware last year and I know abandonware that we had just forgotten their name for

no reason com dog com dog was just like running around managing the project and making sure

everyone did stuff and that's because they knew what they wanted to do and they did it

I've seen a lot of people that just like you know you go into nears and you're like cool

I can throw this around I can throw it everywhere I can do whatever I want but then they never

finish it because they don't really have a plan they don't know what they're doing I

also get sort of comments about sort of oh I don't use dynamic variables I don't use

dynamic impulses because I can never remember what I've called them and the answer there

is like well plan and document your project then if you are making a shooter in nears

and you're using dynamic variables for that shooter write a text document in notepad which

lists the dynamic variable player health or player ammo or whatever you want to use save

it in there's a dot text bring it into the world save it to the world till it's complete

and then everyone in that world can just float over to that text document and be like oh

yeah it's player health I can use that great but if you don't do that then it's gonna lead

to problems particularly if you have multiple people working on the project you need to

know what you need to do I don't want you to stop and do the whole sort of like let's

plan for three months and then not do anything but just like stopping and realizing that

you need to converse or talk about things will get you a long way there I highly do

not recommend scrum but like there's about 15,000 methodologies scrum I've never seen

done correctly though I am a certified scrum master but I don't put that on my resume anywhere

it's just a word I'd like to show you an amazing document from the Department of Defense this

is the United States Department of Defense and it's called spotting agile bullshit or

something along those lines it's a really scary link because it's like literally the

Department of Defense but I promise you it's fine it's just a PDF detecting agile BS it's

great and they talk about how like it's a buzzword they talk about everything and then

they go all the way down to the bottom and there's like a great graphic on page five

page five is like more suited to larger more long-term projects rather than you know say

for example a month-long project for the MMC or you know a smaller NEOS project the graphical

version on page five would be great for looking and modeling for example NEOS itself or modeling

any other VR platform itself it's like one of the things on the graphical things is our

teams delivering working software to real users every iteration and gathering feedback

yes then it's actually agile otherwise no it's it's not and we were doing that I mean

I'm just sort of skip over what's going on right now in the announcements channel etc

we were doing that right we were like updates came in we might not necessarily be able to

work on exactly what you guys wanted us to work on but like it was someone would be like

I'm having trouble doing this and freaks ago here's a new logics note and you get it so

cool so just think of that and think of stuff like that back at university we had to do

a final project which is worth like I don't know like 60% of my degree and I nailed it

I was amazing at it and the project methodology I used for there was fake it till you make

it but I had to do like 14 pages of a like a paper etc on evaluating the different methodologies

and scrum like hit the bottom of the list for some reason so moving on because we're

running long time mr. Angie asked if we had any exciting things so this is this is for

use in jaw reconstructive surgery where if we are reconstructing someone's jaw we can

actually use the leg bone I don't know why it's decided that we you know there's there's

many bones between the leg and the jaw but apparently the leg bone is the more suit most

suitable bone and what the doctors want to say is what like section of bone can they

cut and then what would that do to the jaw so there's a little rig where we're slicing

the leg bone twice we're using a larger model for slicing it and that would then be placed

near the jaw but then we're also reflecting that slicing on the actual leg bone so they

can check that they haven't taken too much leg bone because the user ideally still needs

to be able to although usually they are in crutches or have reduced mobility but they

have a jaw again that's kind of more important sometimes so let's hop through the rest of

the questions trace asks when creating a world near say a project that is going to be a game

world that is publicly playable how far can you go into the terms of using ripped assets

or sound from other games or movies before it dips into the toes of legal valley please

read our terms of use and our guidelines before you do that there is the concept of fair use

facebook fair use is often misunderstood for an appropriate terminology or look at that

you would need to contact a lawyer i would advise just not using ripped assets at all

because then you don't need to contact a lawyer and lawyers are expensive if you would like

to use ripped assets you are stealing stuff unless you can justify it under free use fair

use so check our guidelines check the terms of service read up on fair use contact a lawyer

if they say you can use it you can use it and if they say you can't you can't or just

avoid all that complexity and just don't use ripped assets it's very simple so ng is i'm

asking um what methods i've seen that work uh work with a similar philosophy um to be

honest i've never seen any development methodology it's scrum fdd which is feature-driven development

traditional agile traditional waterfall all the others that have various names i've forgotten

now i've never seen any of them work and the reason is that like you need to build your

own and you need to build your own from the community of people i say community because

like when you'll get a large enough team it's less a team it's more like a community of

people and seeing what they want to do a good example there is things like story points

where um i have frequent arguments at work about if story points are days and the answer

is no story points are not days story points are a measure of difficulty and then you can

track story points based on how many you can complete during iteration i need you to find

some terms here we're running over but i'm going to do it because it's a good interesting

conversation um if you are planning the next two weeks of a a team uh you know software

development team you would call that an iteration sometimes a sprint doesn't really matter i

never call them sprints because sprints implies moving fast and that's bad um well moving

fast is good but like moving fast sprinting means like over exertion that's why i don't

use it and so what you're trying to do is plan how much work can we do over the next

iteration how much work can we do over the next two weeks and it used to be historically

that that would be defined way ahead of time in project planning which occurred before

anyone picked up their pencils and started making stuff but now it's planned sort of

as you go and you might say hey i think we can do two of these really big things for

the next iteration but then you kind of get fuzzy on that it's like well how big are they

how much are they going to take and so you try and estimate how long they're going to

take and then there are schools of thought about estimating in days you're like oh well

this would take five days and this would take five days and you're like boom that's an entire

iteration of work two weeks was 14 days four days for sort of wiggle room cool you've managed

to schedule two features but days are not useful um if you're using the story points

a story in agile development is kind of like a unit of work which benefits the user it's

hard to explain um so instead story points should be the difficulty because the difficulty

means that you have more of a range to play with with a two-week iteration you have 14

days whereas with story points you can go anywhere from 0 to 99 and then you know what's

going on and you can track it and figure out how much your team can do so as an example

here you might say hey this really big feature that is 50 story points and hey this other

feature that is five story points historically how many story points have we got through

in this particular iteration over the course of the last year historically we've managed

to do 40 story points well great you can't do that 50 story point activity but you can

do that five one and it lets you plan a little bit better but because it's a community of

people working i'm like oh you've given story points to my items as days again haven't you

colleague and they're like yes okay sad face and then we have to work around that and then

like the hierarchy of course we want to do work tracking and doing well tracking at work

especially this company of my scale is just crazy people are like oh yeah but i need to

put this under this and that under that and this under that and just no okay two more

questions uh hack 13 asks i used nested sessions this past weekend however i struggle to see

the benefits of the use of the page for them also seems to not exist you provide context

in the use case yes hotel rooms um so they're used a lot and they're actually created for

the vblfc and the reason behind that is let's say you have a lobby of a hotel or the lobby

of a convention that's where people sign up they get their badge and then they disappear

um the disappearing act we wanted that to be other worlds so if you went to the pool

you'd go to the pool world i remember the vblfc pool world well or if you want to disappear

the hotel rooms you go to the hotel rooms world but what that does it starts to show

a unrealistic expectation of the number of people who are at the convention because they're

all in different worlds and they're all spread out if you use the nested session feature

you can group all those sessions together into like a whole hotel and so it doesn't

matter what part of the hotel they're in they're counted together and anyone new who wants

to join can go either straight to the session that people are in via the friends list or

to the entrance of the hotel where they can then find signposts to other sessions that

have been there there's a bit of a like problem in the naming of that feature because um nested

sessions also comes up in code uh when it comes up to the if you remember the like the

like uh the ball menu that's on your right hand where you can sort of see which world

and then when you close out worlds you'll close out worlds in a certain order that's

also called nesting and so i want to kind of like drop the terminology there between

the two features um try and make those a bit clearer and then document them um honestly

if you're not doing a sort of convention or a hotel style event or like a a big collection

of people style event you don't need to use it and even sometimes when you are doing a

big event you don't need to use it that's a good example there for the mmc award party

the award ceremony we we didn't have nested sessions going there because it was different

watch parties it was oh here's the critic canyon watch party here's the i remember because

it was a while ago but you know here's the other social world that's doing a watch party

here's the other social world that's doing a watch party you didn't need that to be nested

because it was distinct activities but um conventions i believe um for uh fernal i keep

saying funeral equinox i had that whole problem throughout the event uh psycho asked about

the ball menu if it's legacy it is legacy but the systems that play uh weren't and are

not and will not be removed you'll notice that even if you use my worlds are in facet

if you close out worlds you'll still end up closing out them in a like structured way

and that still matches what the balls would render if you had the balls on but yeah the

balls are legacy you can quote me on that one damn it the balls are legacy so dre says

now i'm curious what's more expensive um to hire a musical sound designer or pay a lawyer

um honestly musical sound designer you don't need an industry like giant you don't need

like a triple a musical sound designer you need someone from the community um depending

on the project that might even go for free there is the jobs and freelancer section and

there is a bunch of community people out there that would love to be part of your project

uh you can also use um massively licensed sound i know i use kevin mcclood's uh collection

a lot in moc some corrections from cole's and rusio that says that the uh new user events

only were the ones that used them uh for the next decisions great i was aware they were

being used but not exactly how they were being used and then uh rusio says that the the

funeral event seat the fronal event um used them for the new player nights they worked

quite well uh and then hack posted a uh picture uh which shows how they were using them uh

yes that is a suitable setup for how you would use them with that i believe we are out of

time we were like we're way out of time i i like remembering is that especially when

i was in the hotel room world with the car someone spawned the very complex mmc car in

one of the hotel rooms and it freaked out because of course it was a very narrow space

and so it would periodically just sort of teleport into the hotel room sweep people

into it because it sort of had like an auto anchor system on it and then glitch out of

the map and fall down again and so if you weren't careful you would just like be attacked

by a car periodically as it like grabbed you forcibly put you in its seats and then teleported

out of existence it was basically an scp waiting to happen i will see you guys later um we

are out of time go ahead and uh call it here if you have questions please dm me or drop

them here i might respond in text form and i'll speak to you later bye